Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:43 pm Post subject:
[Ares] Near-Future Sci-Fi TC
Subject description: War for fun and profit in the plausible mid-future!
Banshee wrote:
Are you working in a random mod? From the chrono monkey throwing nuclear banannas to an uber total conversion with 9 sides that is in need of members to get help? Or from simple ballance mods that makes the game more fun and attempts to make AI more evil? You can talk about it here!
I love writing design documents perhaps more than I actually love modding. Tossing around ideas is, to me, the most enjoyable part of the creative process. Hence, I'm going to use this post mostly as a way to get ideas "down on paper" as it were, and if a kind soul were to spend a minute of their time to leave a comment, I would not be against it. However, it is highly unlikely that I'll ever get anything more than a tech demo of my ideas actually made.
Infantry, Vehicles & Weapons
In the real world, vehicles such as tanks tend to mount a wide variety of weapons. In addition to the main gun, a tank may very well have a coaxial machine gun rotating with the turret, a hull-mounted casemate MG pointing forwards, and a pintle-mounted MG near the hatch. The Soviet KV-2 and T34 even had rear-facing MGs on the turret, and the M1A1 Abrams tank used by the United States Army has two pintle-mounted MGs on the turret, in addition to the coaxial MG. This is to protect the tank from infantry and light vehicles, but in games such as Red Alert and Red Alert 2, MGs are omitted for reasons of balance and/or engine limitations. (such as that hull-mounted, coaxial and pintle-mounted MGs would require 3 distinct arcs of fire for a tank.)
In the simplified world of Red Alert 2, weapons tend to be very binary in their implementation; either they hit, or they miss. Further weapons tend to be made distinct by their damage; a single shot from a rifle deals a small amount of damage, while a burst from a heavy machine gun deals a whole lot more damage. Hence, slapping an M2 Browning HMG on top of a Grizzly tank in Red Alert 2 would mean that not only is the Grizzly an effective tank killer, it is also an effective infantry-killer. Moreso than basic infantry, which are armed with submachine guns. (Though the G.I. carries an M60)
However, this does not take into account the difficult situation tankers face when engaging infantry. The field of view from a tank is often very limited - even moreso in the past. This is compensated for by having a crew-member stick their torso out the hatch and look at things. However, this exposes that crewmember to small-arms fire. The M1A1 Abram's pintle-mounted guns, for example, are crewed by the tank commander and the loader; losing these would be a non-trivial loss to the tank. Even the otherwise excellent Company of Heroes does not model small-arms fire against vehicle crew.
Therefore, it is eminently possible to make tanks capable against infantry, while not also excellent against them; the limited vision of a tank can be modeled as reduced damage, inaccuracy (FlakScatter, Inaccurate, etc.) or spreading the damage out over the whole cell (Since a cell can contain 3 infantry, a third of the damage hitting the whole cell).
(Furthermore, the cost-difference between training an infantry-unit and building a tank should negate some of the tank's anti-personnel power.)
For example, a Red Alert 2-era advanced medium tank might be armed with a main 105 mm gun, an coaxial prism cannon for dealing with infantry, and an M2 Browning capable of hitting low-flying aircraft. Code-wise, this could be implemented by making the unit use Gatling logic, where the first stage holds one of the weapons and a dummy for targeting, and the second stage holds the remaining weapons. However, until Ares implements CyclicGatling, this will have the effect of sometimes canceling attack missions.
In essence, this is the system I want my mod to implement; main battle tanks have a wide variety of weapons for dealing with threats, but are not as cost-efficient at dealing with non-tank targets as dedicated anti-personnel, anti-aircraft, or anti-building units.
Ares also adds a very good Urban Combat extension to Yuri's Revenge somewhat limited implementation. This allows for a more diverse application of weapons. For example, flamethrowers can be coded to deal massive damage to the units inside the structure, and snipers can be coded to shoot the infantry instead of the building.
Random Crazy Faction and Unit Ideas -- Underwater Faction
The Nautilus Navy are inspired by the Nautilus Pirates in Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, X-COM: Terror From the Deep and the Esoteric Order of Dagon from H.P. Lovecraft's stories as interpreted by the role-playing game CthulhuTech as reimagined by EarthScorpion in Aeon Entelechy Evangelion (a Neon Genesis Evangelion fanfic I'm quite fond of[/i]). They are, in essence, conceptualized as being as at home in the seas as other sides are at home on land, and their naval units are either more flexible or more powerful than their counterparts.
For example, if another submarine or depth-charge armed ship were to be compared to a Grizzly Tank, the NN basic submarine would be more comparable to the Rhino Tank, and at higher tech levels they would also be able to build "Apocalypse Submarines". They would also have a tech-tree that is partly (or even wholly) waterbound and even submerged; once the NN has built their Naval Yard, they can begin to build their tech-structures under water.
However, at the same time they are dependent upon land and surface buildings to fully extend their strategic and tactical capabilities. For one, Ore tends to be found mostly on land, and hence the NN would need to maintain on-shore mining bases, but they would also need to maintain terrestrial bases in order to build airfields and radar domes, and even the ability to build heavy land vehicles.
Their powerful ability to strike at enemy Naval Yards would be balanced by their submarines' lack of AA capability, meaning that a player can use helicopters to cleanse the shores of NN submarines and gain a foothold in the seas.
Random Crazy Faction and Unit Ideas -- Mobility Faction
This faction was largely inspired by the British faction in Company of Heroes: Opposing Fronts. Instead of having a permanently built base, the MF's basic Barracks, War Factory, and to the degree it is possible, Construction Yard, Radar Dome, Tech Centre et. al. can all deploy and undeploy such that they can maintain a very mobile front.
And that's about as much thought as I gave that faction, in terms of the larger picture. ^_^;
Random Crazy Faction and Unit Ideas -- Allied-esque Main Battle Tank & Variations
A medium-weight tank armed with a 135mm main gun for use against vehicles and structures, a Prism-esque coaxial laser or particle cannon for use against infantry, and a pintle-mounted twin railgun for use against low-flying aircraft. Variations upon this may exist for subractions, doctrines or different tech levels, such as an Urban Combat version that replaces the coaxial weapon with a flamethrower for use against infantry and garrisonable structures, one the replaces the main gun with a particle cannon, and one that replaces the main gun with 4 long-distance laser cannons.
Random Crazy Faction and Unit Ideas -- Nautilus Navy Conscripts
Nautilus Navy conscripts are armed with automatic rifles (generic rifle weapon) and Molotov Cocktails (very short-range, short-fused Ivan Bombs that, upon detonation, kill the crew of the vehicle by setting fire to the air-intake).
Random Crazy Faction and Unit Ideas -- Biological Warfare Commando
Navy SEAL/Virus-esque unit that instead of instantly killing infantry infects them with a biological weapon that will result in a messy death that further harms nearby units. (It attaches an Ivan Bomb on the unlucky infantry that results in a Virus-like death. Poor infantry. )
Random Crazy Faction and Unit Ideas --Bush Robot
A nanomachine swarm that disassembles infantry and adds the targets biological and technological advantages to itself. It can reassemble the target from scratch, reprogramming it to be loyal as it does so. (ChronoPrison abductor-logic together with IFV-logic and a passenger survival rate of 0)
So, yeah, that's my random ideas. ^_^;
And to prove I'm not just all thoughts and no substance, here's a frame of a flamethrower infantry I'm working on. I've partly completed a whole twenty five frames!
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:04 pm Post subject:
Ares already has CyclicGattling albeit it's a feature branch right now. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
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Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
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WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
Last I checked it was still listed as "unstable", and it wasn't included in Ares 0.2, so I'm a little wary of basing any truly concrete plans on it. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:22 pm Post subject:
Yes, Millenium such works greatly. I already have a unit like that for a while now (in fact, I'm using a jumpjet IFV for such and it needs to be either jumpjet or hovering to disable passengers to manually get ejected via deploy). _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
The naval forces in Red Alert 2 are somewhat peculiar in their design, especially given that they're made to counter the abilities of each other. For example, the Allied Navy consists of a Destroyer armed with a cannon and an anti-submarine helicopter, a cruiser armed exclusively with AA missiles, an aircraft carrier, and a dolphin.
The Soviet Navy has a submarine, a small boat with anti-ground and anti-air cannons, an enormous cruise missile launcher, and a squid.
The AEGIS Cruiser is a hard counter to the Dreadnought's missiles and enemy Aircraft Carriers. This is the same role filled by the Seawolf. The Destroyer's primary task is to take out submarines. Dolphins are a hard counter to Giant Squids, etc.
This is an extremely rock-paper-scissors approach to naval warfare, and sometimes results in interesting behaviours (according to a discussion I read, the Allied primary anti-ship weapon is the Dolphin.) Yet at the same time, it makes the navies somewhat diverse; the Seawolf is a counter to airpower and also acts as early-game shore bombardment, while the Destroyer is a counter to submarines and acts as early-game shore bombardment.
However, the realities of naval warfare are quite different. For once, being large and expensive, naval vessels tend to be a lot more capable of defending themselves against a variety of threats.
The smallest class of naval vessel in use by modern armies tend to be river gunboats or Patrol Boats. These are small craft that carry a small amount of infantry for shore deployment, and are armed with crew-served machine-guns.
The next weight class is the Torpedo Boat or Fast Attack Craft. Torpedo boats were originally designed to take out battleships, and for that purpose they were armed primarily with torpedoes, relying on their great speeds to avoid the battleships' defensive measures. As guided missiles were developed, Torpedo Boats evolved into Fast Attack Craft, which are fast but fire at ships with guided, long-range anti-ship missiles. They tend to also be armed with weapons like torpedoes, anti-air missiles and 76mm guns.
The Corvette is a ship designed to protect other ships against submarines, aircraft and enemy vessels. As such, they're larger than Fast Attack Craft and are often mounted with a helipad for an anti-submarine warfare (ASW) helicopter.
Both the Torpedo Boat and the Corvette would fit in the role of a Naval Yard-level vessel in a Red Alert-like game. They both carry the weapons needed to fight against other vessels of their weight class. The Fast Attack Craft, meanwhile, would perhaps fit best in the role of the Mammoth Tank to the Torpedo Boat's Heavy Tank. It's primary purpose is to kill ships effectively, and it has AA-capabilities in addition.
Frigattes are large vessels which tend to specialize as either guided missile carriers or anti-submarine vessels. In addition to guided missiles, they tend to be armed with AA missiles, AA guns, anti-submarine missiles, anti-ship missiles, 76mm guns and even heavier (for example 113mm) guns.
A Destroyer is primarily a ship that defends even heavier ships like battleships and aircraft carriers from smaller, faster ships. In fact, destroyers were originally built to destroy torpedo boats in order to protect battleships.
The Destroyer, perhaps moreso than the Cruiser, Battlecruiser, Aircraft Carrier or Battleship, is the capital ship of the modern era. Few modern nations field anything heavier than Destroyers, and Destroyers are made to be capable against almost all other vessels. They're often armed with, among other things, ASW helicopters, torpedoes, AA guns, AA missiles, cruise missiles, anti-ship missiles and anti-missile missiles.
If the Corvette was the Mammoth Tank to the Torpedo Boat's Heavy Tank, then the Destroyer a Mammoth Tank when compared to a Frigate. It is heavier, more durable, and carries weapons for a greater range of missions.
Cruisers were originally a term used to refer to any fast ship on a cruising mission, or a ship mounted with cruisers. In the early 20th Century, they were envisioned as smaller independent raiding ships, and with the 1922 Washington Naval Treaty, which placed a limitation upon the number of battleships heavier than a formally defined Cruiser a nation could own, essentially became a lighter class of battleship. By the end of WWII, Cruisers often operated as a defence against Destroyers for battleships and aircraft carriers. (Which means that the Cruiser defended against Destroyers which defended against Torpedo Boats.) After WWII, the Cruisers changed purpose again, and completely replaced the battleship as the multipurpose big ship of the Great Power/Superpower navies. According to wikipedia which I'm stealing all this info from, the USSR was big on anti-ship missile cruisers, which NATO preferred anti-aircraft missile cruisers. And cruisers are going out of style...
Battleships are big ships with big guns that are good at shooting other big ships with big guns. With the development of mature air-to-ship weapons and aircraft carriers, they have largely been rendered obsolete as the apex of power projection.
Battlecruisers are ships that are as fast as a cruiser and as heavily armed as a battleship, the idea being that the could destroy anything smaller than a battleship with their big guns, and outrun the more heavily armoured battleships they'd encounter. They were, on the whole, not very successful in terms of being a lasting design and virtually no battlecruisers have been built since WWII. The only example classified as a Battlecruiser today is the Russian Kirov-class anti-ship missile cruiser.
Aircraft Carriers are, generally, ships that have a flight-deck for launching fixed-wing aircraft, and also tend to carry ASW helicopters, AA missiles and AA guns. Some Aircraft Carriers, however, carry helicopters rather than fixed-wing aircraft.
Navies in NFSFTC:
I envision navies as having light craft in the form of Corvettes, Torpedo Boats and Diesel-Powered Attack Submarines available once the Naval Yard has been built. In the case of the Corvette, these would be armed with a light cannon and an ASW helicopter. Using Gatling-logic to expand into multiple weapons, they could also be armed with AA missiles. (But weak ones, best suited for taking out helicopters rather than fixed-wing aircraft.)
Once a Radar has been built, most sides would gain access to some kind of Frigate. These Frigates would either be specialized to deal with either submarines or aircraft primarily, or be generally capable. For example, one side might have a Frigate armed with long-distance anti-ship missiles and AA missiles and another Frigate with a gun and anti-submarine torpedoes, while another side has a general Frigate that is essentially a heavier version of the Corvette.
The Radar-level would also be an excellent level to add a variety of variety-type units, such as Repair Vessels.
The Tech Centre would open up for Destroyer-class vessels. These would be supreme all-purpose vessels armed with cruise missiles, AA missiles, anti-ship missiles, anti-submarine missiles, cannons for shore bombardment, etc. To differentiate between the sides, one faction could have a Destroyer armed with a long-range cannon, an ASW helicopter and AA guns, while another side might have a Destroyer armed with AA missiles, an anti-ship/anti-shore cruise missiles, and anti-submarine torpedoes. The Destroyers' greatest weakness would probably be that they cannot deal well with large groups of torpedo-boats or Frigates armed with long-distance anti-ship missiles, hence mirroring the weakness of battleships in dealing with torpedo boats, for some delicious irony.
The Tech Centre-level would also open up for other types of heavier vessels, such as Helicarriers, Unmanned Air Vehicle Carriers, Guided Missile Carriers and other vessels. Here, one side might be gifted with a UAV Carrier that is excellent to bombard battlefields with, while another side gets a Guided Missile Carrier than can tear through navies with a barrage of anti-ship missiles.
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[Ares] Near-Future Sci-Fi TC
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