Joined: 28 Apr 2009 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:18 am Post subject:
GDI defenses
Subject description: I'll cut striaght to the chase.
I personally have always found the GDI method of building defenses tedious. It takes them twice as long to replace destroyed turrets which are not much stronger than the likes of the Nod laser (which btw should be powered, an oversight in vanilla TS). I propose that GDI don't have to go Build component tower=>build turret=>add turret. It's annoying and a waste of time. Instead, could you have that they can just straight build the tower with the gun attached. ie. Vulcan Tower (has the skin of the vulcan cannon on component tower) SAM Tower (has the skin of the SAM launcher on the component tower) and finally the RPG Tower (has the skin of the RPG Launcher on the component tower). And perhaps give GDI another defensive turret, something with railguns or sonic tech =D _________________ Beta Tester for Mental Omega 3.0
Pretty much none of the add-on logics of GDI make sense. Eg. you have to put in 2 extra plugs into the powerplant while Nod simply choose between basic and advanced power plant. The upgrade center suffered from same thing, there were room for 2 plugs and you only had 2 plugs available. The addition of drop pod plug in Firestorm made it actually interesting as you have 3 plugs and room for only 2. Anyway what I mean is, in terms of gameplay the GDI component towers or the power plant don't make much sense, but I guess they kind of give GDI their own flavor. The plugin thing does have one effect in gameplay. While under attack the enemy can destroy the empty component towers before you can properly arm them, all the while Nod can place an immediately working obelisk. This gives Nod a small advantage.
1 of the new "units" for GDI was originally supposed to be a railgun plugin for the component tower, but since it was limited to 3 plugins that concept turned into the Hover Lancer. They can still be used for that base defence role. Think the laser turret is supposed to work in low power, the manual says the advanced laser tech is able to power itself when low on power. In terms of balance its better to leave them to work, since none of the GDI defences shut down either.
But suppose if this change was made and the GDI defence were built in 1 piece, would the AI build them properly? I remember reading about GDI AI getting all crazy if it has a defence structure that is not made of 2 pieces? Or does the problem go away if the component tower logic is removed? _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 28 Apr 2009 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:45 pm Post subject:
I tried this, I didn't see anything anomalous in the AI's behavior. About the base defenses, I just personally thing all base defenses should be powered, the the exception maybe of the light tower (Which I put into my mods, has sensory radius and a light machine gun). _________________ Beta Tester for Mental Omega 3.0
AFAIK the AI needs to have one upgradeable defence structure. However, you could simply make invisible, cheap upgrades that the AI deploys immediately after building the main structure, IF this problem persists. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Btw I was thinking, since a building can have up to 3 plugins, could a base defence building have 3 places for weapon upgrades? And they would all work properly? Like the component tower could be upgraded to have eg. 1 grenade upgrade + 2 samsites?
I kind of like the fact that the weaker base defences work even in low power. I think base defences in general are not that useful against human players as they can simply go around them. So wouldn't want to make them much worse than they already are. I would like for the GDI samsite to go offline in low power though. Even Westwood intended this by looking at the code, but the component tower logic makes them always work. Guess making the base defence built in 1 piece would solve that. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Redundant or not, the components did give GDI the feeling of being high tech. Though game play wise, get rid of them, they are just a big waste of time. QUICK_EDIT
The components were practical when the GDI was going to be able to swap out turrets without selling the whole tower. Of course that was never added, but Westwood didn't think of the ramifications. _________________ Victory! QUICK_EDIT
I've changed it so that all GDI base defences shut down during low power. Only defences that work even in low power are Nod laser turrets (as mentioned in TS manual) and Forgotten machinegun bunkers. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Late reply (sweet celestia, late reply/dat bump) I know, but...
Make the component tower stronger.
Early on, GDI has a good defensive bonus, making component towers quite powerful and hard to take down, even with their crappy weapons(buff the guns aswell maybe?). GDI doesn't really -have- something to balance out Nod's Obelisk, so make it that while one-on-one, Obelisk trumps Vulcan/RPG Tower, but Vulcan/RPG trumps Laser turret easily.
That could be offset by a higher power requirement and taking longer to build - more durable but taking longer to deploy suits GDI's play strategy well. In vanilla TS, at least. _________________ "Banned" RP here QUICK_EDIT
I thought GDI base defences were quite powerful as they are. Ok, the vulcan cannon has pathetic range, but the Nod laser has even worse. I've already increased the laser range, might increase the vulcan range by 1 if it feels useless. But the grenade towers are amazingly good considering you can build them right after building a barracks and a component tower. And they only cost 800. And in the original TS they don't even go offline during lower power (this has been changed in Reform). Personally I always thought two grenade towers for 1600 are better than one obelisk for 1500.
+ For early game GDI already has titans and disk throwers (and medics), which work very well together. I don't think they need more help early on. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
The components were practical when the GDI was going to be able to swap out turrets without selling the whole tower. Of course that was never added, but Westwood didn't think of the ramifications.
Thats a revelation to me... that would have been awesome. I'm guessing the Base Component Tower was slightly more expensive and the component Slots could be overriden with the different Turrets? _________________ ~ Excelsior ~ QUICK_EDIT
Strange, I've always thought component towers were rather underpowered, esp against dick tanks and cyborgs, compared to the Obelisk, one build, quite strong and classy zappy zappiness. I DO like how they merge into walls, though, very much, and between "one build" and "merging with walls", I vote walls.
Making component towers built as one just ruins something about it... A separate structure for each purpose (antipersonnel defense, antitank defense, antiair defense) would be preferable to "one build component towers", imo.. In TW (as much as I hate the game, it is 'officially' the next game in the series, making evolutions in there 'canon') GDI has a set of generic base defenses more like they did in TD, except using guns and cannons instead of rockets. Still...
Standard tower with a machinegun
Antitank gun turret with a high caliber cannon or a railgun?
Antiair building
...apologies if this seems rushed, poorly written or whatever, been having a bad day and quite tired. _________________ "Banned" RP here QUICK_EDIT
I pop in every so often when I get into a RA2 or TS mood. Recently I was listening to "Lone Trooper" on repeat when I realized "ztype man, TS was the shit, I should play it again". But then I realized "ztype, my last build was borked. Hmm, Maybe I can fix it". But THEN I realized I'd restarted on aless-borked build. So I came back to see WHAT IZ UP MANG. New mods, new unit tweaks/fixes, etc etc.
So yeah. Sup boys?
I see you two are still here. Anything new on the TS front? Any major breakthroughs I've missed?
e: that sodding stupid filter still remains, I see. Why, I have no idea. _________________ "Banned" RP here QUICK_EDIT
EA was planning on reusing the Component Towers in Tib Wars but they eventually scrapped it in favor of more traditional Defenses, Still if they did follow through it would have just been the same as WW's Unfinished Plan if Volgin is telling the truth. You had to sell the tower to refit the Turret...
Still it would have been nice to see Component Towers in Tib Wars too... _________________ ~ Excelsior ~ QUICK_EDIT
Yeah GDI was supposed to be flexible defender being able to override the turret any time with the particular need...
Except sidebar design already with the endless scroll to find what you need and build it also makes it absolutely frustrating, might be in the time you find the upgrade and queue it, in that time the base component tower got destroyed and you have to cancel the upgrade and go back to square one...
Would have needed separate queue for upgrades to even keep it in worthwhile realm. Even turret wars would be futile with Nod winning easy, building two firing turrets in time GDI gets one built and upgraded... QUICK_EDIT
The component turret makes sense for the AI since it can sell the turret and build a new one. For the player its tedious at best.
It is one of my plans to make new component towers which get built like the laser tower. So no component anymore. Once thats done I may make the files a public asset. I think Aydra in TS3 has done it in his mod as well.
As for the AI, making building duplicates which the AI then builds should work. It will however build a fix amount of defenses. Something like 7 vulcans 5 sam 3 rpg. The AI wont go crazy as long as those defenses aren't coded to be a defense, only a structure. With the buildlist in the sidebar the amount of defenses and in which order they are built can be controlled. I may get to it this weekend. _________________ Free Tibed!
EA for worst company of the decade! QUICK_EDIT
Would at least be an improvement if each C Tower started with a Vulcan turret, which then could be turned into SAM or RPG. Though I don't mind back to standard, non upgradable turrets either.
Dawn of the Tiberium Age removes Componant Towers with no issues AFAIK. It simply replaces WallTower with a free 0x0 structure. QUICK_EDIT
[CompTower2]
Name=Tower
Strength=500
Armor=concrete
Prerequisite=GAPILE
TechLevel=1
Sight=4
Adjacent=3
Owner=GDI
Cost=200
Turret=yes
Points=50
Power=-10
Sensors=yes
BaseNormal=no
Crewed=no
ROT=5
Explosion=TWLT070,S_BANG48,S_BRNL58,S_CLSN58,S_TUMU60
TurretAnimZAdjust=-45 ;WST 6/18/99 was 50 but cause z buffer problem: Component towers turret animation depends on what the player attaches :
HasSpotlight=false;
MaxDebris=2
ThreatPosed=30 ; This value MUST be 0 for all building addons
DamageParticleSystems=SparkSys,LGSparkSys
DamageSmokeOffset=500, 500, 400
IsBase=no
HasStupidGuardMode=false
TurretAnim=gactwr_c
Image=GACTWR
Primary=RPGTower
With TurretAnim=gactwr_c it is a RPG tower. With TurretAnim=gactwr_b a Vulcan and TurretAnim=gactwr_d a Sam. That thing still needs further polishment but does the trick. _________________ Free Tibed!
EA for worst company of the decade! QUICK_EDIT
One thing I have noticed is that the Component Tower way is what causes the Vulcan Tower to fire its Weapon with no delay as it actually has 2 Weapons and not just a weapon with 2 Bursts. But oh well you gotta make sacrifices... _________________ ~ Excelsior ~ QUICK_EDIT
One thing I have noticed is that the Component Tower way is what causes the Vulcan Tower to fire its Weapon with no delay as it actually has 2 Weapons and not just a weapon with 2 Bursts. But oh well you gotta make sacrifices...
You can nearly achieve the same effect with a few keys on the weapon:
Code:
Burst=2
BurstDelay0=0
ROF=25 ;26
Theres a tiny tiny delay between the weapons firing, but you can barely notice it. The ROF should be lowered by 1 to make up for the tiny delay. I tested this to make sure the damage output remains the same. I've been using this for AI-only vulcan towers (that are built as one structure). They were required to make the GDI AI build more base defences. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
It appears that one problem remains. Only one building may be a Walltower meaning 3 independent towers instead of 1 upgraded can't have the ability to be placed inside walls. _________________ Free Tibed!
EA for worst company of the decade! QUICK_EDIT
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GDI defenses
